Unreliable Air Service

[sw1024]

I'll preface this by saying that I'm not a pilot or an aviation safety expert...

But...flights into Mammoth--in particular those operated by United--have become a joke. Trying to get family in for the past two days from SFO...and they can't seem to make it. Yesterday, they called it weather related and didn't even attempt to take off...which would be fine...if there was indeed weather. We had some wind in the morning...but no weather. Today they actually took off and lingered above Mammoth...before deciding they couldn't land. The weather was not bad...a few flurries, no wind, plenty of visibility at the airport. They told the passengers that it was visibility issue and couldn't attempt a landing...but if I can see all the way down the 395...no snow, no wind...not sure what the problem is.

I've done alot of traveling...plenty of flying into small airports during Winter--Colorado, Utah, Midwest. They rarely cancel flights into those places unless the weather is really severe. I've been on flights in and out of Wisconsin when we could barely see the de-icer guy spraying the wings...took off no problem. Yet Mammoth seems to have this ongoing problem. I don't get it. Is it just United? I was told the Alaska flights made it.

The real question becomes...why are we subsidizing Winter air service if it's this fragile. Today is as good as it gets for Winter flying conditions...barely any snow, no wind, no problems on the route here. I don't think Colorado resorts have this problem...so why do we?

[Flynride]

High Altitude and low lift.

They should have created the service in and out of Bishop but 45 minutes was too far....

[junit]

the 3:50 pm alaska flight did not land. after being in a holding pattern for what seemed like thirty minutes or so (eternity) we were told the visibility was bad so we were number two in line waiting to descend. after the look/see just past crowley things seemed promising then the next thing i knew we were full throttle heading straight back up. more holding pattern as our pilot came on and said they were "deciding what to do next". i was all about returning to LAX. i know people who have been thru two attempts at landing and still returned to LAX. one attempt was enough for me. the pilot said, "we could not see what we had to see on the runway". from my window it looked like extremely variable visibility. just the kind that might sucker someone into making a wrong decision. i was happy to be back on the ground but i felt sorry for the 70 travelers who were told there were no seats until monday or tuesday. especially the international tourists.

i have flown frequently in the winter months in and out of mammoth and i think the question of subsidizing fragile air service is a legitimate one. when it is good it is very, very good and when it is bad it is horrid!

as usual, there was confusion at the ticket counters. you would think they would know how to refund my fully refundable ticket quickly but it took ten minutes at least. the people who were codeshare were sent to their respective ticket counters. my advice, always check the little box for travel insurance and have a back-up plan. if you are only going up for the weekend and there is any weather at all (which of course there always is) be prepared to reschedule for another weekend.

as i heard, "what do you mean you can't land?" from the back of the bus, i was reminded of, "what do you mean the top is not open?" on a bluebird pow day. i do understand the frustration but i am a bit risk averse so i generally don't question those in mountain operations or on the flight deck. i have also been cancelled on days when the flying weather seemed "perfect". at least then i was cancelled on the ground. it's another beast when you are "trying" to land.

i am sorry your family did not get into mammoth. i don't get to see mine either this weekend. in my case there were clearly (ha!) visibility issues. tonight mother nature had the last word. doesn't she always?

[PerfectZero]

This ain't Wisconsin. And today was definitely not "as good as it gets" for flying.

[M2M]

never forget the day we sat in the swarming hut - on weather hold, sitting next to a guy that was bragging to his girl that just because the road was closed, was no reason to worry,,because they were going to fly out fine and dandy = - - - -

I kindly waited till he got up and mentioned to his girl friend that it,,,
"might be a good idea to call and book your hotel for the night"

I'f we're not driving,,,your not flying !!!

[Biker395]

High Altitude and low lift.

They should have created the service in and out of Bishop but 45 minutes was too far....

Oh, if they had only done that instead.

[Jbaysurfer]

It just gets better and better. Good money after bad. They should probably hire a brand new city manager in town to replace the grossly overpaid one and then give the new candidate a cushy severance package when they see the town books and run for the hills.

[skibuddy2]

:twisted:

It just gets better and better. Good money after bad. They should probably hire a brand new city manager in town to replace the grossly overpaid one and then give the new candidate a cushy severance package when they see the town books and run for the hills.

Oh ,,,,, yea,,,,, they did that one already.

[hardnipplez]

:twisted:

It just gets better and better. Good money after bad. They should probably hire a brand new city manager in town to replace the grossly overpaid one and then give the new candidate a cushy severance package when they see the town books and run for the hills.

I'm actually being paid right now to consult with the consultant who will then consult with the temporary city manager who will then be sitting down with me and my consultants to try and get ready to get ready before we plan and begin our consultations with a new consulting firm from los angles. Stay Tuned......

Ever turned binoculars around backwards?.

[viyer]

The wind patterns in the Eastern Sierra are unique and really can make for terrible flying weather. Imagine when there are 70+mph winds on the top of the mountain, and visualize those winds as a fluid flowing over the ridges. It creates some ridiculous turbulence and mountain wave activity (this same activity has allowed gliders to fly unpowered from Minden to Colorado). Add to that that some customers have little to no tolerance for turbulence, and it's not surprising that they cancel flights due to weather. When the winds are even higher (100+mph) it would be extremely dangerous.
I am a pilot, and the worst turbulence I've experienced is in the Owens Valley and coming over Mammoth Pass. Not fun.

And trust me, if they actually flew to the airport and cancelled a landing, they did so because they had to. It costs them a ton of time and money.

For anyone interested, this is the instrument approach into the airport. The United flight would probably be Category C, at the bottom, calling out that they need 3 miles visibility and to break out of any clouds at 8380ft. It's possible that the slower Alaska flights could be Category B, allowing a lower visibility.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1302/06841R27.PDF

[Big Tim]

How hard would it be to set up Eastern Sierra Regional Airport Bishop as an alternate?

[skibuddy2]

How hard would it be to set up Eastern Sierra Regional Airport Bishop as an alternate?

You are kidding. Very difficult.
FAA
DWP
CEQUA
NEPA

Did I get all of them.

[Photoho]

You forgot the Sierra Club and the Amish against human flight

[Sierra Lady]

Plus the PTB in Bishop really don't want to hassle with a regional airport. Why should they when nearly everyone who would fly in there would drive up 395 to Mammoth?

[windyscotty]

If you saw the photo I did of a couple burned to death in their cockpit from a crash on Doe Ridge, you would think Bishop is a better idea for an airport. I am not sure the townspeople would want the noise. It is pretty loud when the choppers go over.

One thing about Bishop is that people can hold over there if the road is closed from a storm or it is too dangerous to drive up the hill. Meaning that it is still possible to fly into Bishop when the Mammoth airport is shut down.

The Bishop airport is set up. I just walked around it the other day, and it is a pretty good layout.

I think Bishop would be the better choice for safety sake. That Mammoth airport is just too creepy and too many lives have been lost there.

You still have to drive from Mammoth airport up to the town. So what is the difference?