Backcountry ski thread

[maxpower88]

Jesus Christ I didn't mean to start such flaming. Airbags might be more likely to save your life (3% fatality rate of skiers caught in slides wearing air bags compared to nearly 50% of skiers wearing only beacons *with* experience and around 70% of skiers wearing beacons without) than a beacon because they can actually help keep you from going under whereas a beacon will just help your friends find your dead body. Do you go around and tell people who don't have one they're dumb asses?

A beacon is kind of like wearing a helmet while BASE jumping. If you mess up to the point where you need it, it probably won't be able to save you. It might, and you should have one, and I'm still gonna get one, but acting like a beacon is the sole difference between good decisions and bad ones is not true. When we went up we took into account the increased likelihood of sliding snow and took a more appropriate line down, through the trees and less steep. We did the best we could with what we had, and it worked.

[PerfectZero]

Sometimes the truth hurts.

Skiing the Sherwin's (or anywhere ob) without proper gear and knowledge is a dumbass thing to do. Putting one's self at risk is dumbass enough, but putting others at risk is really a dumbass thing to do.

There are many people who argue that going out in avalanche terrain at all is a dumbass thing to do. Lots of people think skiing period is idiotic. To them that is the truth.

You know another reason people lack proper knowledge about the backcountry? Because when they turn to the internet for info, they get name calling and condescension in return. Happens all the time, and its unfortunate if you think that's the best way to encourage people to be safer.

[SKIPUNK]

Don't worry, we brought a dog

Please don't be a statistic. Shoot me a pm next time you go. I have extra beacons that you can borrow. We would at least like to send your body home so you don't end up as coyote poop.

I have gear you can borrow as well.

[JohnLemieux]

I don't know where you got your stats, but they are wrong.

"The data endorsing avalanche airbags is strong. According to the Swiss Federal Institute for Snow and Avalanche Research, between 1990 and 2007 there were 151 people who were lucky enough to be wearing (ABS-brand) airbags, yet unlucky enough to be caught in avalanches. Of those fortunate, or unfortunate, folks, 66 (44%) were not buried, 63 (42%) were partially buried, 19 (13%) were completely buried but the airbag was still visible on the surface, and only 3 people (2%) were completely buried with nothing visible (at least one of which was struck by a secondary avalanche). Of the 151 people, there were only 2 (1.3%) fatalities. Those numbers are vastly better than the statistics for people wearing avalanche transceivers. Of course, you must wear an avalanche transceiver in addition to an airbag in case the airbag doesn't keep you on the surface or a secondary avalanche occurs."

Some day as airbags evolve they probably while be considered essential gear, but at this point they are just too new and expensive as well as other drawbacks.

Expense is the same reason I don't have a beacon yet. Like I said though, I'm getting one.

Your base jump analogy is pretty weak, unless you tend to screw up with nearly every jump. It is more like driving fast cars without seat belts. Nearly every steep slope has the potential to side.

Except that beacons don't protect you in the event of a slide like seat belts do it the event of a crash, they just make it easier for people to find you. ABS bags are more comparable to seat belts. ~30% of avalanche deaths are from blunt force trauma and won't be helped by beacons at all.

IT'S EXTREMELY DANGEROUS WITH OR WITHOUT A TRANSCEIVER

Thanks to people with actual helpful info and offers to let me borrow their gear.

[doconboards]

I've seen the same data on airbags, and it's actually quite impressive. They've been using them in Europe for quite some time; we just haven't heard about them as much in the US. With those statistics, other than cost and weight, they're aren't a lot of drawbacks to using the airbags. It's like life insurance - you hope you never have to use it, but $600 and an extra 6 pounds little to give if you ever are in the need for it. I was thinking of getting the Float 30 from BCA. REI used to carry them on their website but strangely they disappeared about a month ago. Wonder why...

[Grumpy]

John,

Drop it. You are not going to win this argument. You life is worth more than a phone call or $300. Everyone who is giving advice is doing so because they know what can happen. It's not if, it's when. You may get lucky many times but the one time you don't is the time we have a 30 page thread about how nice of a guy and what great photographer you are. Hit me up.

[TheSnowman]

Knowledge is what will save your life... take a class. Sad I see so many unprepared riders walking by my house on their way out. Half of them look they think this is Disneyland. Anyone remember the guy who died in the bluff chutes back in the 90s. I can see the spot he died from my desk... the guy next door pulled his dead body out. Ugly

[JohnLemieux]

John,

Drop it. You are not going to win this argument.

It's not even an argument. I agree that everyone should have the proper gear, but people are exaggerating the difference a beacon makes and acting as if having one means you are not at risk and not having one means you are at great risk. Realistically, you are at great risk if you have one and slightly greater risk if you don't. The AIRE handbook says that since avalanche transceivers hit the market, mortality rate has only gone down 10% (from 76 to 66)[this same handbook states that airbags are more effective at preventing death than a beacon]. My point is that it's so dangerous either way that to call someone who doesn't have a beacon a moron while not calling ANYONE who skis the backcountry a moron makes no sense. One is just 10% more moronic than the other.

[Grumpy]

It will make perfect sense when you are buried and no one can find you. You will be really bummed when you hear voices just feet away as you slip into unconsciousness.

[JohnLemieux]

It will make perfect sense when you are buried and no one can find you. You will be really bummed when you hear voices just feet away as you slip into unconsciousness.

So then I assume you also use an airbag and avalung? Because it will make perfect sense to call you a moron for not wearing them when your head slips under the snow or you take that last breath of usable air.

I'm not arguing that I shouldn't have one and if I'd been able to have one at the time I would have, but the extra risk wasn't worth sitting it out to me. Riding a motorcycle (even with a helmet) on the street is still more dangerous and I do that too.

[Paradise Guy]

Can't you use both the beacon and air bag...

[JohnLemieux]

Can't you use both the beacon and air bag...

That would be the ideal, and becoming more and more the norm. In the avalanche at Steven's Pass earlier this year that took the lives of 3, everyone had a beacon, but the fourth person had a beacon and an airbag, and the bag saved her.

[Paradise Guy]

^^^I remember hearing about that. After all these pages of discussion it comes down to that? Mmmmm

[Dropn N]

Big wave surfing now using the air bag technology almost guranteed to bring you to the surface.... not so much of a guarntee in the snow. Good chance you will still be held down!

[sesamestreetwest]

Can't you use both the beacon and air bag...

That would be the ideal, and becoming more and more the norm. In the avalanche at Steven's Pass earlier this year that took the lives of 3, everyone had a beacon, but the fourth person had a beacon and an airbag, and the bag saved her.

Rescuers say that Soules was riding alone when the avalanche occurred. He was fully equipped with an avalanche beacon, an Avalung, and an ABS Air Bag System, which had been deployed (although it had been “shredded,” Masters said).

Read more: Watch Newspapers - Avalanche Kills Sidecountry Snowboarder in Contention

I can tell you this as an avalanche practitioner for over 20 years the hardest thing to predict is the human behavior associated with the decision making that goes into skiing a avalanche prone slope regardless of the level of knowledge or the level of protection one has. The science of avalanches is no mystery and is well documented and published. The science of human decisions is still a mystery (at least to me). You can argue that you may be safer with no equipment because you may be way more conservative on what you decide to ski. What makes someone buy over a grand worth of equipment then go out by themselves? May I suggest you go to avalanche.org and read about all the near misses and fatalities, check out Snowy Torrents and study avalanche accidents. Put yourself in their shoes to understand the decision making. By no means am I judging you or saying you are bad for skiing some pow on a nice day in the Sierras without the basic safety equipment accepted by today’s society. It would be very difficult to explain to a friend’s family why they or you didn’t have the basic equipment if something tragic happened. Start off with a transceiver, shovel and probe. Practice frequently, be conservative with what you ski. Don’t be fooled by thick timber, small slopes or multiple ski tracks. Have a plan, practice one at a time skiing. Give yourself and your friends the best chance should an accident occur.